Are Automated Roulette Machines Rigged

1. Are Automated Roulette Machines Rigged For Sale
2. Are Automated Roulette Machines Rigged

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Thread Rating:

Thanks for keeping the business honest, Wiz.	12 votes (40%)
Another big waste of time, Wiz.	8 votes (26.66%)
I think your experiment was scientific and fair.	3 votes (10%)
Your methodology was flawed.	3 votes (10%)
The math was way over my head.	3 votes (10%)
You dumbed it down too much.	No votes (0%)
I suspect there is more to this story.	12 votes (40%)
Sounds like a fair defense against AP.	No votes (0%)
You should have done a Kolmogorov-Smirnov test.	No votes (0%)
You should have done a Wald–Wolfowitz test.	No votes (0%)

30 members have voted

You can see how interblock is upset at the mere suggestion of gaffed wheels how the disclosure of mr s data would be even more damaging and suggestive

They may be.
They shouldn't have motor-controlled and sensed wheels responding to players' bets - that is, 'if they do' - when they can have air gun-pushed wheels with no magnetic sensors on them, and non-interfering cameras on them to track spin results. This is the honest answer to automated roulette!
If you mix casino wheel speed control, and player bet size tracking, then the casino or manufacturer themselves will gaffe the results, - in a claimed innocent attempt to 'eliminate AP' when they are now committing it themselves! That is NOT how you do it.....
The magnets or motors on the wheels can both detect and also control speed - faster or slower - the speed of the wheel, based on whether they are 'reading' a wheel, or 'pushing or slowing' a wheel, by reading the magnet, or by applying pulses to the magnet - like a motor.
By having just an air gun type pusher on the wheel, to free spin and accelerate the wheel, - and just having optical sensors to read the wheel - then no magnetic or motor influence can possibly be applied to affect the wheel.
This could have been done.
On regular Table Game wheels, there are no motors or magnets, just an optical non-magnetic reader to read the wheel without any influence occurring, - to update the tote board of spin results for the dealer and players. There, it is a free-spinning wheel without possible influence.
An optical wheel reader can resolve all numbers spun - and bets made on a dis-attached computer system to resolve bets without influence by the house. The bet resolver does not have to be attached to 'wheel control' - to know what the players had bet and what they should be paid per spin. It 'can' be mis-used to gaffe the wheel speed, which is the same 'speed tacking crime' that the AP players are using, but in the guilty casino's electronic hands now.
Because on electric machines, where the wheel is propelled by an electro-magnet motor - the same motor can also control and slow down the wheel mid-spin.
If the wheel were pushed by a mechanical or air gun arm, there would be no motors or magnets attached onto the wheel - which can also control wheel position and speed in relation to the bets made, - to 'fix outcomes.'
The wheel is supposed to spin freely without any further or possible electronic manipulation, mid-round or mid-spin, from the point the ball is release into its groove. If late bets are a player-clocking issue, then close the betting off in an earlier point, much in the way a dice dealing stickman accepts no late bets after the dice are out, and cannot be booked without the late bets set up.
It may cost a few hands or spins an hour - but there would be no fraud possible.
Counter-Gaffing the wheel against AP players is a gaffe itself by the manufacturer themselves! Removing late bets, and having a natural, unbiased and natural wheel with no late bets OR wheel influence is the answer. It'll cost a few later bets per hour - but that was the problem all long.
This should be done.

Can't there be a way to prevent wheel clocking while still keeping the game random?
Anytime the game feels 'threatened,' it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.

This is my thought as well. Although for me it stems from a position of ignorance of not knowing what exactly about a roulette wheel makes it behave sufficiently random for gambling purposes.Paigowdan

If the game should be beatable, but it's not being beaten at all, that would be the proof.

Another question might be, - are these roulette machines being seriously played in comparison to the tables, - so we can tell?
I have returned to dealing at Fiesta H. (on the late night/overnight shift), - and the Interblock roulette wheel machine (a competitor) seems absolutely untouched. Been back six weeks there, and I haven't seen a single player on it late night/early morning touch it. I have seen and dealt some good overnight 'real table' roulette, BJ, PGP, and crap table action, even UTH at 4AM. I know during the overnight hours it is absolutely untouched, and I would assume the monthly lease is in the thousands, may high hundreds. The thing is considerably larger than a Lincoln Continental, and it is silent all the time. The thing is the size of a four-table pit, and it is always dead. I believe it may be under the slot department. I KNOW it is not under the table games department, personnel-wise. I do not think our TGD would lease such a thing.

If it's being beaten, there's proof the game isn't gaffed.

No. It can be beaten and gaffed at the same time, just one party doing a lousier (or better) job of it..
But I don't think we can tell from the results at a few locals casinos or a gagged, hinted to issue. It would take at least some action and clean review to determine that, and those numbers, if greater than zero, are in the Slot Manager's/Table Games Shift Manager's office, and I assume, also under a corporate gag order, clearly. The gag order might be under the product removal notice, too, for all we know.

There would be security surveillance watching the players as a countermeasure, which would be the perfect response whether it's gaffed or not.

I've never seen anyone notice it, no less play it. If it were noticed, someone might put an IV drip on it and say a Rosary or something. A White elephant walk-around feature on the floor if there ever was one, simply a huge ghost presence. It even has a four-spin football-like 'touchdown bet' on it, as we can see in the pit from its flashing adverts. Probably costs more in electrical usage in its idle time than it sees in daily table game drop. I think its numbers may fall under the slot department, if not through the floor. Maybe I can't say this, I'll have to ask some swing shift workers I tap off games getting in tonight if anyone plays it, coming on duty. I'll do this tonight (actually Friday morning overnight). We also had the automatic 'automat' electronic poker table, and the bubble crap machine, which also had no action, and came and went.

Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.

In terms of game protection,
1. You'd need to have some action in order to have some back-offs, and;
2. there's no way to past-post ('cap'), pinch, or color-change active bets on an electronic machine, but again, that assumes the machine thing gets action, and besides, we've seen little (none, actually) of that in the pit.
3. Back-offs on roulette are EXTREMELY rare, and mostly alcohol-related/public disturbance in nature. Capping and pinching, and past-posting bets are generally felonies, and when caught, are not in the normal AP/card-counting category.

The way I understand the accusation, if a player is trying to game the machine, the machine reverts to a computerized rng to land the ball, but if the bets don't scare the machines, gravity and the loss of momentum are allowed to do their thing, because the assumed hold is safe.

Ah....so it doesn't go into Cheating mode unless, of course, it feels threatened or cheated itself, and by a computer algorithm written by a paranoid programmer. I get it.
If so, the machine is alive - and in the worst of ways.
One would think a legitimate casino product wouldn't have such a mode, the 'Justified Counter-Cheating' maneuver/mode. Okay, now I've seen everything, and the cyborg Arnold Schwarzenegger Sci-Fi movies now make sense to me.
Seriously, if a commercial gaming product has ANY sort of a cheating mode, it cannot be justified as a mere counter-cheating defense at all. A machine is either clean, or it is gaffed, which would be a VERY serious scenario for a gaming product.

Are people being asked to leave and no longer play roulette or is everyone welcome, is the question.

No. The machine, if it gets any action, just has people play on it, which is rare, and which I have yet to see, and I work in a casino right next to such a machine.
No one would get backed off, - I suppose that they'd just lose, and then leave, if they did play the thing. I have yet to see a hand-pay on that thing, no less a player.
Edit: I'll play the roulette machine Friday or Saturday.They aren't very popular machines. But they do get some action, mostly in places where the cheapest Roulette table in town is $10+ or its a location with no live table games.Maybe so.
But at our house, with live tables of a minimum bet of $3 and a limit of $1,000, it's only the actual table game that gets the roulette action.

I meant if someone was skillful to visually predict the outcome, the casino would not want them to play. When I wrote about the bets, I meant the bets always coming in late and were skillful. Obviously people will bet late just randomly and also not skillful predictions, they'll keep them.

True - but the threat of AP players, (and not the simple late bettors), combined with the fact that the motorized wheel is continuously controlable under computer control, results in a scenario where they may have, or actually had, taken away the truly free spinning wheel motion to where they are adjusting the speed to deliberately steer it away from big bets.
Even if partially done and partially successful, the very presence of this possible wheel control action or feature (or its attempt to do so) makes the wheel biased and controlled against some of the bigger players' bets. The fact that small bettors or early bettors don't undergo these attempts at 'wheel control' on them doesn't change the fact that some wheel control attempts are present in certain cases.
If a gaffe is present intermittently, it is still present and attempted. It is like a magnet under a crap table using magnetic dice: if it is only used against some big players some of the time, it is still used as game influence. None is acceptable, and any use is unacceptable, in terms of having an on-the-level clean game.
I totally understand a game designer/manufacturer wanting to have an AP-proof game, but a casino house or manufacturer using AP (wheel timing) against an AP player (a wheel clocker who may be timing the wheel) is committing exactly the same despised action, if it is done. A motorized wheel is a controllable wheel, and if the wheel is controlled after betting is closed to respond to a big player's bet size, it's a gaffed wheel.

Also, late night playing might not mean much. If people were to want to play this to make money, they might want day hours and to blend into a crowd. If someone was beating it, playing 24 hours a day might be a flag to the casino. Maybe nobody is playing during the day, beats me.

True. It may get enough action to be viable at various places. Certainly depends on the house and the local acceptance of the device. Some places may have action on it. Some places it is fairly dead.

My understanding of the threatened mode didn't make sense in practicality. Yes it wouldn't work, because it would just seem weird by the way the ball moved and landed. Sounds more like a fake-out, where the ball appears to want to land somewhere, but doesn't, allegedly. I don't really believe it, just suspicious and can understand how a casino could use its power when when vulnerable, and not think anything of it. I've seen it on must hits being the worst paying slots in casinos, not much of a guarantee, so Machiavellian.

It may often fail. And it would/could be so subtle as to not be noticed by 'biological units,' or human beings, who can't detect the minor but possibly significant speed changes by the human eye in play. It wouldn't look weird, necessarily. It would look unnoticed, as just another ball drop into a pocket.
It is the attempts at it, and that it might work, that is troubling. It is when the casino house or designer is using speed changing techniques after the close of betting that is serious; imagine a wheel clocking player being able to control and brake a roulette wheel towards his bets unnoticed, or his attempts at it. Then image the house doing this, the very same thing. Who is allowed to do this by gaming? I say neither.
A controlled wheel that is responding to the location of players bets is an attempt at game influence, - if it is done.

One of the most common questions you’ll see about anything in the casino gambling industry relates to “honesty”. You’ll see this question asked about every casino game under the sun. You’ll also see it asked about every casino, especially the online gambling sites.

In this post, I want to address this specific question:

Are slot machines honest?

How Do You Define Honest?

When I use Google to look for a definition of honesty, I see some of the following definitions listed:

• “Free of deceit and untruthfulness”
• “Sincere”
• “Morally correct or virtuous”
• “Fairly earned, through hard work”

I think most people are thinking of the first definition when they ask whether slots games are honest. They want to make sure they’re not being cheated. In this context, the answer is yes, slot machines are honest. I’ll explain why in detail in the rest of this post.

In the second context, where “honest” means “sincere”—I’m less sure. Are the casinos sincere when they want you to think you’re able to win money? I think so, but they know in the long run, anyone who plays slots long enough will lose all their money.

In the third and fourth contexts, I’d have to say that slot machines are NOT honest. Slot machines are closer to morally neutral than they are to sinful, but you might have a different belief system about such things. It’s hard to say that slots don’t appeal to one of the seven deadly sins, though (greed).

I’m not sure anyone could (or would) consider money won on a slot machine “earned” or to have anything to do with “hard work”. It’s a game of luck. If you win, then you got lucky—it has nothing to do with working hard or being smart.

I’ll explain more about that later in this post, too.

How a Slot Machine Works Mathematically

Answering the question “are slot machines honest?” begins with learning how the games work mathematically. The math behind the games is easier to understand than most people probably think.

The first concept to understand is basic probability. When someone says “probability”, they’re talking about the mathematical likelihood that something is going to happen. That “something” is called an event.

The probability of an event is always represented as a number between 0 and 1. An event that will always occur no matter what has a probability of 1. An event that will never occur has a probability of 0. An event that will occur half the time has a probability of 0.5.

For simplicity’s sake, and to make understanding the concept easier, I just used whole numbers and decimals in the previous paragraph. But probabilities are almost always expressed as percentages or fractions.

How to Express Probability as a Percentage

You’re watching the evening news, and the meteorologist says there’s a 50% chance of rain tomorrow.

That means it’s just about as likely to rain as it is to not rain.

Here’s another example:

You flip a coin. You have a 50% chance of it landing on heads. You also have a 50% chance of it landing on tails.

If you add the probabilities of all possible events together, you always get a total of 1 (or 100%).

Probability is the mathematical engine that makes gambling games possible.

How to Calculate a Probability

Here’s how you calculate a probability:

You take the number of ways an event can happen. You divide that by all the total events possible (including what can happen and what happens if it doesn’t.)

You’re rolling a single six-sided die. You want to know the probability of getting a 6.

There are 6 possible outcomes. Only one of them is a 6.

The probability of getting a 6 is 1/6.

Another way to express that is using odds, which can be useful when calculating whether a bet is expected to be mathematically profitable or not.

Odds expresses the number of ways something can’t happen versus the number of ways it can happen.

In the six-sided die example, the odds of getting a 6 are 5 to 1. You have 5 ways of NOT rolling a 1, and only 1 way of rolling a 1.

If you want to calculate a probability that includes the word “or”, you add the probabilities of the events together.

If you want to calculate a probability that includes the word “and”, you multiply the probabilities by each other.

You want to know the probability of getting a 1 or a 2 on a roll of a six-sided die. The probability of each is 1/6.

1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6

You can reduce that to 1/3.

Here’s another example:

You roll 2 dice. You want to know the probability of getting a 6 on both dice. The probability of each is 1/6.

1/6 X 1/6 = 1/36

Applying Probability to a Simple Hypothetical Slot Machine Game

But how does all this apply to the honesty of slot machines?

I’ll use a super simple hypothetical slot machine game to explain how this probability affects the integrity of the game.

This super simple game has 3 symbols on each reel—an orange, a lemon, and a cherry.

The probability of getting a lemon on the first reel is 1/3.

The probability of getting a lemon on the second reel is also 1/3.

In fact, it’s the same on each reel.

But the game only pays off if you get 3 of the same symbol on each reel.

The probability of that is 1/3 X 1/3 X 1/3, or 1/9.

Let’s suppose the payoff for getting 3 lemons is 4 for 1.

And let’s suppose the payoff for getting 3 cherries is 3 for 1.

Finally, we’ll suppose the payoff for getting 3 oranges is even money.

• The probability of winning 4 coins is 1/9.
• The probability of winning 3 coins is also 1/9.
• The probability of winning 1 coin is also 1/9.
• The probability of winning nothing is 6/9, or 2/3.

Now let’s suppose you’re putting $1 in on every spin, and you play 9 spins, getting every possible result once.

You win 4 coins once. You win 3 coins once. You win 1 coin once. That’s a total of 8 coins you’ve won.

But you’ve inserted 9 coins into the game.

Where did the extra coin go?

In the pockets of the casino, that’s where.

By setting up the payoffs so that they’re lower than the odds of winning, the casino sets up a situation where it’s guaranteed a mathematical profit over the long run.

Of course, most modern slot machines aren’t quite this simple. They have more symbols on each reel, for one thing. For another, the probability of getting a particular symbol might be different from the probability of getting another symbol.

For example, you might have a 2/3 probability of getting a pear, and only a 1/24 probability of getting a cherry.

What Happens in the Long Run vs. the Short Term?

By manipulating the payoffs and the probabilities of the symbols, the casino can guarantee that over a long period and many spins, they’ll profit.

Are Automated Roulette Machines Rigged For Sale

But in the short run, a player might win a big jackpot or lose several times in a row.

That’s the nature of random events. In the short run, anything can happen. In the long run, the numbers get closer to the theoretical probability.

This is obvious when you look at it with an extreme example.

On an infinite number of spins, your average loss per spin will mirror the mathematical expectation.

The closer you get to an infinite number of spins, the closer you’ll get to the mathematical expectation.

Do Slot Machines Cheat?

The casinos don’t need to cheat to make a healthy profit.

The slot machine designers and manufacturers don’t need to cheat to make a healthy profit.

In fact, in well-regulated jurisdictions (like Nevada), games are thoroughly audited for fairness. When they’re auditing a game for fairness, one of the things they check is whether a game has a jackpot that’s impossible to win.

That’s the main concern many players have when they ask if slot machines cheat.

Does the game have jackpots that are impossible to win?

The short answer in almost every case is no, they don’t.

But you have no way of knowing what the probability of winning that jackpot is. Slot machine games have opaque odds and probabilities. The results are generated by a computer program called a random number generator (RNG).

The only people who know the exact settings for that RNG are the designers and the casino managers.

In fact, you could be playing two identical slot machines located right next to each on the casino floor and have different odds of winning. Not only is this legal, it’s common.

Does that sound like cheating?

By the strict letter of the law, it’s not.

Is it honest?

I’d say yes. Having two games next to each other offering different odds is intentionally misleading. It’s legal, but it’s not sincere in any way.

Online slot machines are no different, except that in some cases, these games HAVE been known to cheat. But not reputable casinos and not reputable software providers.

How do they cheat?

They set up games which are impossible to win.

The reasons baffle me. You stand to make far more money in the long run if you offer an honest game.

Even an idiot can tell after a while that he’s never going to win a rigged casino game on the Internet.

But otherwise smart people will continue to deposit money and wager it at a breakneck pace if they’re winning something every now and then, even if they’re showing a net loss over time.

That’s how gambling works.

What About Video Poker Games?

You need to understand immediately that video poker games are NOT the same thing as slot machine games. They look similar on the surface, but the math and the gameplay couldn’t be more different. And the philosophy behind these games is different, too.

Here’s why:

A video poker machine uses a random number generator that duplicates the odds found in a 52-card deck of cards. You know the probability of getting a specific symbol. Any specific card has a 1/52 probability of appearing.

A card of a specific suit has a ¼ probability of appearing. A card of a specific rank has a 1/13 probability of appearing.

Payback Percentages and the House Edge

Knowing this enables mathematicians and computer programs to calculate the actual payback percentage for these games.

What’s a payback percentage?

It’s the percentage of each bet that’s paid back to the player on average in the long run. It’s the opposite of the house edge.

On a slot machine, you have no way of calculating a game’s payback percentage. It’s impossible, because you have no way of knowing the probability of getting a specific symbol.

But on a video poker game, you can calculate all the possibilities. And since you know how much the game pays out for various combinations, you can add the expected value of each to get an overall payback percentage for the game.

And you know what’s even better than this?

The payback percentages for video poker games are significantly higher than the payback percentages on slot machines in almost every case.

Even the worst video poker game usually has a payback percentage of 95% or so. But the better games offer payback percentages in the 98%+ range. Some (rare) games have pay tables which offer a slightly positive game for the player, like 100.2%. But those numbers assume perfect strategy on your part.

But even the best slot machine games usually have a payback percentage in the 95% range. The more common games slip down into the lower 92% or so range.

Expected Hourly Loss Rates in Slot Machine Games vs. Video Poker Games

What does this mean to your bankroll?

Let’s look at how much money you can mathematically expect to lose playing 2 different games:

We’ll start with an average slot machine game with a 94% payback percentage. You’re playing for $1 per spin, and you’re making 600 spins per hour. You expect to win 94% of each bet back, which means you expect to lose 6% of each bet.

6% of $600 is $36, which is the amount the casino expects you to lose on this game on average over time.

Then we’ll consider a 9/6 Jacks or Better game which you’re playing with perfect strategy. The payback percentage for this game is 99.54%, which means the house edge is 0.46%.

We’ll assume you’re playing a quarter machine and betting 5 coins per hand. You’re putting a little more money into action on each bet–$1.25. Most video poker players are as fast as slot machine players; they play 600 hands per hour. That’s $750/hour in action.

But with a house edge of 0.54%, your expected loss on that kind of action is only $3.77.

That’s right.

Playing slots costs you 10 times as much as playing video poker.

Video poker offers other advantages over slots, too. One of these is the skill element. You might not want to think about what you’re doing when you’re gambling.

But if you’re anything like me, you want to be able to at least exert a little bit of control over your destiny.

Are Automated Roulette Machines Rigged

In video poker, you get to do that. The decisions you make playing each hand have a direct effect on your bottom line.

Play your hands well, and you’ll be playing one of the best gambling games in the house.

Should You Play Slot Machines at All?

This is a legitimate question. Should you play slot machines at all?

Here are some pros and cons of playing slots:

Pros:

• You can win bigger jackpots on slot machine games than any other gambling game except maybe keno. If you’re looking for a life-changing jackpot, like you’d see if you won a lotto drawing, slots are the way to go.
• They require little in the way of attention or effort on the part of the player. This suits some temperaments just fine. Relaxing in front of the spinning reels seems like a good deal for a lot of people.
• They’re available in an endless variety. You can find a slot machine game with any theme you can imagine. Love Elvis Presley? You’ll find a slot machine for it. Play Dungeons & Dragons when you were 12? There’s a slot for that, too. The themes and games are almost endless.

Cons:

• They offer some of the worst odds in the house. The house edge for slot machines vary widely. Some of them might offer good odds, but most of them have a house edge of between 5% and 10%. This isn’t awful. After all, roulette has a house edge of 5.26%. The problem is that slots play so fast that you can easily put more money into an action than you thought you could.
• You can’t figure out what the odds are. I have a philosophical problem with slot machine games. No other casino game is opaque about your odds. You can calculate the house edge for any table game in the casino. You can calculate it for video poker, too. But you’re never given the information you need to figure out the house edge on a slot machine. This is unacceptable to me.
• They’re designed to be addictive. Slot machine manufacturers spend millions doing research into what kinds of stimuli are going to put most people into the “flow” state. Flow is great if you’re interested in personal productivity at work, but if you’re playing a gambling game, it’s awful. No other casino game is as addictive as a slot machine.

Conclusion

Yes, slot machines are honest—in a manner of speaking, anyway. Casinos don’t make claims about slot machines that are blatantly untrue. If a game has a maximum jackpot of $1 million, you do have a chance of winning that much money.

What you don’t know is how likely or unlikely it is to win that amount.

Is this disingenuous on the part of the casinos?

I think it is, at least to some extent.

But all casino games have math behind them that puts the odds in the casino’s favor. That’s just the nature of the games. Slots are no different in that respect.

No matter which casino game you play, if you stick with it long enough, you’ll eventually lose all your money.

The only exceptions are certain games that can be played with advantage techniques, but that’s another subject entirely.

The only way for you to get an edge against a slot machine game is to cheat.

In most jurisdictions, cheating is blatantly illegal. You’re better off learning to play poker at an expert level, or learning how to count cards in blackjack.

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